Today's Home Delivery is an academic,
a feminist and an author.
She is a force of nature and an oasis of reason.
It's the wonderful Susan Carland,
and I'm picking her up in a Sigma.
(LAUGHS)
I know, right?
No. My God!
What is this? (LAUGHS)
Hello, my lovely Susan.
What? How did you...?
I know. So, this is a car that you would be familiar with?
Yeah. Oh, yes.
So familiar. Was it orange?
It was bright orange, and it had the beige interior.
And I think, Susan, that it would be only fair
that you should drive.
Alright, get in. OK.
Oh, that...
And there's a fire extinguisher under the seat, just in case.
It's strange sitting here,
because, obviously as a kid, I was always in the back.
Yes, of course. So I actually never sat here.
So, this is... I'm my mum. I've become my mum. (LAUGHS)
Oh, God.
Oh, honestly.
OK. Well done.
SONG: ♪ Jump in my car
♪ I wanna take you home... ♪
(BOTH LAUGH)
♪ Jump in my car
♪ It's too far to walk on your own. ♪
Dr Susan Carland is an academic, author,
social commentator,
mother of two and a Muslim leader of tomorrow,
according to the UN.
I really believe in Islam as a religion.
I really do believe that it has something to offer the world,
and that it's a thing of beauty.
And I just want people to see that.
Her expertise in gender,
sociology and the modern Muslim experience,
along with her warmth, wit and ginormous brain,
have made her an important voice
in the Australian cultural landscape.
This is doing quite well. It's almost like the car...
I'm just pointing it to go home.
Find home, car. (CAR HORNS HONK)
Oh!
You know what I'm saying? There's always someone.
There's an orange Sigma coming through here.
I know. You make way.
And what does the numberplate say? BAD.
We're on our way to Forest Hill. We are.
What was Forest Hill like when you were growing up?
It was just that lovely suburban childhood existence.
My house was just up here.
This is it. Oh, my goodness. It's so cute.
Fantastic. Look at it.
So, when were you living here?
So this was the house that I came to when I was born.
And then I lived here till I was about seven,
when my parents got divorced.
And then my dad stayed here so we'd come back and visit him here.
And how long has it been since you visited?
I think it's about 27 years.
27?
The thing that they've changed about the house,
which is unforgivable, this house used to be pink.
Not just, like, delicate... "Is it slightly?"
No, it's pink. Pink?
Unquestionably, adamantly, self-confidently pink.
Alright, lead the way, my friend. OK, OK.
I'm actually nervous. Are you?
It's so strange. I feel like I'm walking into a surprise party.
Did you organise me a surprise party?
That would be really nice. I really didn't.
(LAUGHS)
Oh, my God.
What has happened? (LAUGHS)
It's like being in the future! Is it? Yes.
This is all so different.
What area was this? This was the lounge.
So, this was dining table,
because you're right near the hutch from the servery.
The food would come...
So, the kitchen is on the other side of that wall.
I assume it's still there. And it would just come straight out.
We should say there was your dad, Ken, your mum, Jan.
Yes. My brother, Michael.
Older than you. A little bit older. Yes, yes.
Were you very chatty around the table at dinner, or it was like eat, go?
I think so. I can't remember.
I remember it was a strict "no TV on during dinner" rule.
But I do remember in the kitchen
what I loved is that when we'd do the dishes,
we had to dry the dishes every night,
my dad would always give us sums, math sums to do.
And I loved it. I absolutely...
Like, I'd beg him for more sums.
And is this the same view out there?
Well, because I was little when we lived here, I don't know.
Like, I was down here, so I don't know what the view was.
The bathroom used to be around here.
What has happened here?
Oh, my gosh.
So, they've still got the bathroom here.
Where's the...? (LAUGHS)
There's the toilet there.
This is like...
This is like one of those dreams
where things are just bending in front of you.
And this was my room.
Let's see if the stickers are still on the window.
I covered the window in stickers.
Oh, they've taken them off. Oh!
The reveal is there are no stickers.
So, out there was like, it was all carpeted
and that was the family room.
So I remember I'd lie in my bed at night waiting to fall asleep,
and I could just hear my parents watching TV and chatting.
And it was just that very comforting,
normal family life that was such a...
..you know, just the clatter of dishes and adult voices,
and that sense that everything was right in the world.
There were other people taking care of things.
Who did you have on your wall?
The very first poster I put on my wall
was the first movie star I had a crush on.
And I remember when I went to this movie, thinking,
what's this excited feeling in my tummy?
I didn't know what it was. It was love.
It was... There was a film. You probably wouldn't even remember it.
It was called Young Einstein, starring Yahoo Serious.
I was obsessed.
Like, in that moment, the world changed,
and I remember walking out of the movie with my mother and brother,
thinking, "How are they just acting like nothing's happened
"when I'm in love now?"
Wow. "I'm a woman."
And what was it about Yahoo? "I'm a woman."
What was it about Yahoo?
Because, I mean, in Young Einstein, he's kind of crazy, he's smart.
Yeah. Yep. Yes.
I think I always really liked the different, the oddball.
Which says a lot about Waleed. (BOTH LAUGH)
Well, this is very different, too.
Is it? Oh, my goodness. Oh, gosh.
So, this was all grass,
and we used to have the trampoline here.
And I spent a lot of time on that trampoline,
just lying on my back and, you know,
doing the thing where you find the shapes in clouds.
I'd spend hours doing that. And so your parents would be rapt.
They'd go, "Great, Susan's out. No need to look after her."
Yes, less noise. Less noise.
Less constant yammering from Susan.
Even though it's quite different,
how does it feel sitting here?
It feels good. Like, I feel like the ghosts are still here.
The ghosts of my family when we were little.
The reason that I left the house when I did
was sad memories as well,
and that's really strongly etched in my mind as well.
So I think that probably adds to a bit of the sadness.
My parents separated when I was nine. You were seven.
Mm-hm. How was it for you?
One day, they told us to come and sit down around the kitchen table,
and they told us that they were going to get divorced,
and they were both crying.
And obviously my brother and I were crying.
It was such an emotional, sad moment,
and just not knowing what happens now...
And it's funny, I don't have any memories of the house
after that conversation.
Hmm. They just stop there.
Hmm.
I remember I struggled with going, like, you know,
being with Mum during the week and Dad on the weekends.
I remember finding that difficult.
I remember always finding the transitions hard.
Like, leaving Mum was sad and... um...
Yeah, and then we'd get into sort of the swing of things with Dad,
and that would feel sad to leave him.
But I look back now as an adult, also,
and I think it was absolutely the right thing for them to do.
You know, they weren't happy together anymore.
And I grew up feeling pretty, you know, nurtured and safe
and loved, and all those sort of things.
So it wasn't a horrific divorce.
Even then it was still difficult.
So religion was always in your life, really.
Yep.
Were you a Sunday school kid? Mm-hm.
We had to go to Sunday school until we were in high school.
So, it was forced.
Like, it was, you know,
"You don't get a choice, you have to go to Sunday school.
"Once you get to high school, you don't have to go."
What was it about Islam? How did you find... How did you come across...
So, when I was 17, I still had lots of questions
and I started to wonder,
"Am I just following the Christian path
"because that's what I've been raised in?
"You know, is there truth or meaning elsewhere?"
So I decided, "I'm going to look."
And I wasn't interested in Islam at all.
In fact, I was adamantly not interested in Islam.
I thought it looked sexist and outdated and barbaric.
You know, all the stereotypes.
The standard things that many politicians today seem to think.
But to my surprise, I kept just stumbling
across information about Islam.
It provoked my interest, and so I started to...
Were you looking at other ones? Yeah, I was really...
Yeah, I was looking at different things, too.
But I just kept sort of coming across Islam.
And so I thought, "OK, I'll have a look."
As that was happening in your own mind,
are you starting to think, "How am I going to tell people?"
Yeah. I was terrified.
Absolutely terrified about telling people.
My family, my mum in particular.
And my friends.
I had... You know, it was awful.
I was so worried about telling people,
because I didn't know how they'd react.
I assumed they would react negatively, and most people did.
Um, and I think also it didn't help that I decided that I wanted
to wear the hijab straightaway. (LAUGHS)
Like, I think if I just said,
"I'm going to become Muslim but I still look the same,"
it would have been much easier for people to take.
It's funny when you talk about it. It sounds like you were coming out.
You know what I mean?
It's like this great secret of having to tell everybody in the family.
That's exactly what it was like.
"Well, this is who I am,
"and I can't pretend that this isn't who I am anymore,
"and so I'm just going to tell you who I am."
And so it was like a coming out.
When you finally find that thing you're looking for,
are you feeling lighter?
Are you feeling more certain about life?
Because you still have questions.
You know, we still have doubts. Of course.
And I think you always will have questions.
And I think that's healthy.
That's a sign you're still engaging
intellectually and spiritually with your...
..with your tradition, otherwise you just...
You know, if you're not wondering, I think you're sort of flatlined.
I think it felt like coming home was the best way I could put it.
I just felt like this is...
Yeah, this is right. This is the right decision.
And I've never thought to myself,
"I think I made the wrong decision."
There has certainly been a lot of times where I thought
it would be a lot easier,
like it would be much easier if I didn't believe this,
my life would be so much easier.
But the reality is I do believe this.
I cannot... That has never changed.
I've never doubted that this is true.
And so when you think that, it's just, well, then that's...
Then life follows.
When you walked to school, was Michael with you, your brother?
Yes, often he would... There was a mean kid who lived up the road.
He would sometimes shout mean things at me as we walked past.
So my brother would sometimes walk with me to protect me,
and that made me feel better.
But often, I'd just, you know, trot off home by myself,
happy in my own mind.
How ready were you to get to primary school?
I was running in the gate. (BOTH LAUGH)
Why am I not surprised? (LAUGHS)
And does this look anything like it did?
No. I tell you what wasn't there in 1984, was that amazing sign.
With the temperature on it.
I distinctly remember lining up for my classroom just down here.
Yes, I remember this.
Oh, my goodness.
It's so weird now that I'm tall,
I can see through the windows. Yes.
I never used to be able to do that.
Oh, my gosh.
I remember when the fan was installed.
Everyone was so excited.
We just stared at the fan going round all day
until a kid vomited. (LAUGHS)
Did you come here to learn, or to play at school?
Well, I mean, do you think many preps sort of,
you know, when you're at first year of school,
do you ask yourself that question?
"What am I really here for as a five-year-old?
"What are my five-year goals?"
You know, you're here to just,
I don't know, go to school, that's what I do.
Were you kind of conscientious
once you got to fifth and sixth class
when you know that it's sort of becoming...
I liked learning,
but I just couldn't stop talking.
I was just talking all the time.
I was the big disrupter. You're my spirit animal.
I just could not shut up. Excited.
You know, I just needed to do this.
Like it was really... It was really bad. Just unrelenting.
And so I'd be distracting the kids around me with my...
I would now like to take you, Susan, to church.
May I? Please.
It's just around the corner. Yes, I would love to.
So, this is the church where you were baptised?
Yeah, I was christened in this church when I was a baby.
That's right.
And that was my kindergarten over there.
So, that's the... like preschool. The preschool that I went to.
But there's more that we need to see here, Susan.
Oh, yeah.
Because something else happened in this building.
Let's have a look into the hall. Oh, I can't wait.
Oh... Let's have a look in here.
..my gosh.
I actually feel a bit nervous to go in.
Now, this is the hall where you used to do what?
Oh, I did ballet.
(GASPS)
Oh.
Oh, my goodness.
I'm surprised that it's this room that seems to kind of
make you stop a bit more.
Yeah.
This room was just everything. It was everything.
So, for you, ballet, how often did you do it?
When did you start? I started when I was seven.
And just doing, you know, one class on Saturday.
But then moved up to doing, you know,
many more classes than that, and I just loved it.
I was just so happy when I was here.
Oh, I have to touch the ballet barre.
(LAUGHS) Oh.
Oh, my goodness.
Oh, I just can't believe I'm back here.
I just can't believe it.
So, you started at seven. How long did you go till?
I went till I was about 20, and then I was getting old.
I was getting a bit old. It was time...
Here you were doing it at 20? Yeah, here.
I never left.
And I remember, because there'd be so many girls here to do ballet,
we'd be all along...
The windowsill as well, that would be the additional barre.
So you can see... I bet if you look here,
you can see how the dust starts here,
because of the fingers that are always here.
So, they actually just use this.
We'd stand here. That's old-school, isn't it?
And we'd do our plies looking out the window.
Which is so nice. Yeah.
Now, guess what I found over here. (GASPS)
Oh!
The Vaughan Academy Of Dancing.
Who's there in 1992?
Can I tell you how much this meant to me?
Really?
I can't tell you how much it meant to me. It meant the world.
And see that person who came the following year?
That was my best friend. Aww.
So, we were just so tight, yes. It was just... It meant...
Like, for me, it was all the validation I needed.
It was so exciting.
I remember working particularly hard that year,
because I thought, "This is going to be my year.
"I'm going to win the award." This is the Brownlow.
This is the Brownlow of dancing. (LAUGHS)
But you didn't just want to keep doing it just for the fun of it?
Yeah, I did, but I realised
that so much of my love of ballet was trapped here.
It was here.
It was this place and how I felt being here as a kid growing up.
Like, you know, when my parents got divorced
I still came here and was happy here.
And then when I became Muslim and it was a drama
with certain family members and friends,
I'd come here and I was... everything was good here.
Like, this was the place where everything was good and happy.
And so I didn't realise until I went to do it as an adult
that this place in particular created all that positivity.
Yeah, I just... Oh, this barre. Oh, my God.
I know. So gorgeous.
Oh, I want to take it home with me.
I don't think that's allowed. Do you think they'd notice?
(PIANO MUSIC PLAYS SOFTLY)
Are you doing it with me? Yes, I am.
OK. First. That's first.
Oh, there was always the banging.
You had to move on. Got to be a space. A bit of space.
Second. What's third? Oh, is that third? Alright.
This is how we did it. No, I believe you.
Look, I didn't pay attention. Thank you. Great.
And then you're out again. Look at her.
I love that you're a ballet dancer.
Oh, I can't tell you what it means to be back here.
Hey, shall we meet a friend?
I think he might be in here. Hello, Maithri.
How are you? How are you?
Lovely to meet you. Do you know this lady?
I think, yes. How are you?
(BOTH LAUGH)
They're friends.
Here's a little talking nook I prepared earlier.
Shall we go there? Oh, wow.
Very nice. OK.
This looks very impressive, actually.
Now, Maithri and Susan, you have known each other for how long?
20 years, I think.
Yeah, 19, 20. Yeah, 19 or 20 years.
Where did you meet? University, yeah.
And what happened? How did you bond?
I don't know. Well, I remember.
Forgive me for telling this story.
Forgive me for telling all these stories.
(ALL LAUGH)
I remember one day we were...
I think it was like an anatomy museum or somewhere,
and there was just a group of us sort of sitting around.
It was a very sort of ethnically diverse group.
And people were going around telling each other their names
and what it meant.
You know, and so I said, "My name is Maithri,
"and it means boundless love."
And then someone else said, "My name's..."
I think Saran, which means, like, you know,
serene like the lake of the moon.
And then it came to this person here, Susan.
And Susan just looked at us sort of deadpan,
took a sort of dramatic pause and then said,
"Daughter of Satan."
(LAUGHS) Daughter of Satan.
"That's what my name means." Fantastic.
And I knew we'd be best friends. And now we are here.
That's the story of our friendship.
Why do you remain friends? What keeps the friendship going?
Just, you know, it's just a lovely part of our lives
is just knowing that you've got that person there
that you can complain to, or share a joke with,
or, you know, if I want good advice, life advice or spiritual advice,
Maithri is a really good person to go to.
And that's... You know, that's so... Everyone needs someone like that.
We both sort of had our own sort of coming-out journeys.
And watching Susan sort of not so much come out,
but convert to Islam
and doing it with such grace and strength...
You know, when I was coming out as a gay man,
and that was a few years later,
like, I drew on sort of what I saw modelled in Susan
and sort of we both experienced that kind of inequity
and that kind of feeling of I'm still the same person,
but I'm being treated differently.
And we sort of have this really cool camaraderie,
you know, and we just make each other laugh.
Yeah, make each other laugh.
Yeah, we like similar things, and I guess we both have this desire to...
You know, like that Muhammad Ali quote that, you know,
you serving others is the rent that you pay
for your life here on earth,
and so we take that ethos seriously,
that society should be better when you leave.
And so we try to encourage each other in that.
What was the reaction of people that you saw
when Susan sort of announced
or started to talk about becoming a Muslim?
I still remember that day. I don't know if you do.
I do. I do. I really do. Yeah? I remember because...
Because I hadn't really said anything to you beforehand about it.
You hadn't. You hadn't.
And then I was looking at books,
and then Susan sort of taps me on the shoulder.
And I turn around, and she's in the hijab.
And I saw it, you know, and sort of didn't skip a beat
and we just kept going.
And later on that day, she said,
"Maith, do you want to say something about...?" You know, and...
Well, I didn't want him to feel he couldn't.
Like, I didn't want him to feel like,
OK, this is the subject we do not broach.
But I respected him so much for sort of...
Like, I could see him sort of... He was surprised when he saw me.
And then he just kept going. Like, it was like nothing had happened.
And I really respected that.
You know, he wasn't like, "What are you doing?"
Like, he was just like, "OK, this is who you are," and just carried on.
Before Susan was a Muslim,
she was hilarious and compassionate
and progressive and a feminist.
And after she's a Muslim, she's more hilarious
and progressive and a feminist, you know, to me.
You know, she's...
It's only deepened her and helped her to unfold and unfurl
into the kind of person that she was sort of born to be.
Lovely to meet you, Maithri. Lovely to meet you.
Thank you. Thank you. Absolute pleasure.
Phew, it went fine. He was really quite nice about you, wasn't he?
Yeah, not what I said at all. (BOTH LAUGH)
Alright, let's go to high school.
You're a lot more assertive than I am.
She's like, "I'm getting out there."
Is it the power of the orange? It is.
Look, I think the numberplate has helped.
Yes. But I also...
I live in the inner city and you need to be quite forceful,
otherwise you can never get out of your street.
It's like, that's feminism.
Sometimes you just have to take women's rights
from the cold, dead hands of the oppressors.
You've just got to take it sometimes.
They're not going to give it to you.
Do you see yourself as a feminist? Yeah, I do.
For me, if someone doesn't want to describe themselves as a feminist,
that's their prerogative.
I have a much more pragmatic attitude.
And in the end, if you are interested
in stopping oppression against women
and fighting against it whether you're a man or a woman
and you want women's equality,
and you recognise that there has been
systematic oppression against women politically,
structurally, socially, religiously,
that these things have happened,
and you want to work to change that,
then I don't care if you call yourself a feminist or not.
I don't care what vehicle you use to get there.
I don't care if you take an orange Sigma
or you take the feminist chariot.
If we're all trying to get to the same point,
then just come along for the ride.
Now, when were you here?
I was here in the '90s.
And has it changed much since then? No, it has not.
There are so many memories flooding back to me right now.
Give me some. Alright.
Well, this was the Year 7 locker bay.
So this was my very first locker, was right in here.
I remember being very happy that I had a top locker.
This was the sign that you were in high school.
So, I distinctly remember, I was in about Year 8,
and I was walking along here
with one of the really cool popular guys, Shane Chamberlain.
And I was walking along next to him, just trying to be calm.
And I walked straight into this pole.
Oh. You weren't centred.
I was sort of looking at him dreamily, no doubt.
And what did he say?
He goes, "You just walked into the pole."
"Yes, I know." Yes, I did.
It's the obvious.
And there is no way you can pretend it didn't happen
when there's a loud clunk with your head.
Were you alright? Did you recover? What was your recovery?
The fact that I've not forgotten it
shows that my ego has never recovered.
It was so embarrassing.
And that's just what high school is. I know.
It's one embarrassing event after the other.
It is.
Home Economics, Susan Carland.
It smells the same. It certainly does.
It smells like lemon cleaner and flour.
Why didn't you continue with Home Economics? What did you do instead?
I think by the time it got to older classes,
I wanted to do three science subjects and three humanities,
and so I didn't have the space.
Alright, off to the library. OK. Oh, my favourite place.
Oh, yes.
Did you come to the library a lot, Susan?
I did used to. I remember we did...
I was on the debating team.
And so I remember we used to do our preparation up there.
And all the naughty books that we wanted to look at,
like about the occult... (LAUGHS)
Of course. ..were over there.
It's always peaceful in a library, isn't it?
Yeah.
And how has today been for you?
You know, I feel like I can still hear the voices of me
and the people that were around me at those times in those places,
and it's quite overwhelming.
It's quite an overwhelming experience to be back here.
And in many ways, quite lovely.
Even the things that, you know, if they were difficult,
like walking into the pole,
it's still nice to revisit that, you know?
Yeah, it's quite therapeutic.
Now, you and I, luckily, came to school
when there was no social media.
But, you know, I went to an all-girls school,
and let me say, those girls found some extraordinary ways
around not having social media to make life a misery.
How do you think you would have been at school
if social media had been around?
Oh, I think... Would you have used it?
Do you think you would have been someone that used it?
I think I would, because everybody does.
Nearly everyone in high school now does it. So I would, too.
I think I would have struggled with it like a lot of people do.
I think it feeds so much insecurity.
And I think, especially when you're a teenager,
you feel unsure of yourself anyway, and your place in the world.
Social media just turns up the temperature on that,
you know, a million-fold.
It would be so hard. So why be on it?
Because I think there can be good from it as well.
I use, particularly Twitter, as it's a great news source.
You can just funnel
so many different news sources right in front of your eyes
straightaway from all over the world.
It's the fastest way to do it. So I use it in that way.
And I follow interesting people,
and I force myself to follow people I don't like and I don't agree with,
because I don't want to be in that echo chamber.
I don't just want to be in the bubble
where everyone says everything that I already agree with,
and it just reinforces the rightness of my opinion.
So, I follow people I find really objectionable.
We're all surrounded by the same people
who are similarly educated to us,
that think the same way we do, and so we cannot believe,
why did all these people vote for Brexit?
Well, it's because you're in your bubble. And we all do it.
It is not unique to any, you know,
political leaning or anything like that.
It's what we do. And in some ways, it makes sense.
But it's a problem, because sometimes we need to be told,
and I need to be told when I'm wrong.
We need to be.
Now, you've been married to Waleed Aly for 14 years.
People often think that you converted to Islam
because of Waleed.
We know that's not true.
We weren't together when I became Muslim.
But why do you think people make that assumption?
Because I think people cannot believe
that a woman would choose to become Muslim.
There is this general, "Well, OK, maybe those women are Muslim
"because they've got no choice.
"You know, they were born into it.
"What option did they have? But why would you choose it?"
Like, they cannot believe that someone,
especially an educated woman,
would possibly choose it for herself.
It just... It does not compute.
Is the Australia you became a Muslim in the same or different?
It's harder now. Harder.
It's really... Like, I became Muslim before September 11.
Right, OK.
There was ignorance about Islam and, you know, a bit of animosity.
But nothing like, you know, polls saying
half of Australians want to ban Muslim migration.
That's confronting.
And it's been bad for a really long time.
I remember after September 11 and after a few other things,
we thought surely it will start to get better now.
And it is not getting better.
And that's... that's really difficult.
Do you think it will get better? Is it generational?
It's going to take that long, or can it be swifter than that?
I don't know. I have to be hopeful, because it's one or the other.
Either you're hopeful or you think you're a pessimist,
and I cannot live with the belief that it won't get better.
Everyone has to choose to participate in this and say,
"Well, you know, between stimulus and response,
"between something bad happening and how we react,
"there is a space, we have a choice about..."
We don't just have to go,
"Well, this terrible thing happened overseas,
"or this person did this, and so this is my reaction."
We have a choice.
In that moment we choose if we have a knee-jerk reaction
and we make things worse, and we have a moment where we can go,
"You know what?
"I know the society that I want to live in and be part of,
"and so I'm going to build that society
"in how I respond to this," because what's the alternative?
If 12-year-old Susan was to walk in here,
what would you tell her?
If I could say to her and go, "Look, I am you in 20 years,
"this is probably not what you were expecting you'd look like."
(LAUGHS)
"Just trust me on that and deal with that later,
"but just don't worry about what other people say.
"Get good advice from people you trust and respect,
"and ignore everybody else, and just keep going."
Well, it's been such a delight, Susan.
Thank you. It's been great.
You're someone who, you know, when you talk about having converted,
what was more important to you was to live an authentic life
rather than live a life that wasn't yours.
And not many people do that.
So, it's been a privilege to be able to talk to you.
Thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.
Thank you, Susan. Thank you.
Now, let's get that book from the occult.
(LAUGHS) The spells.
Captions by Ericsson Access Services
Copyright Australian Broadcasting Corporation